Or, better, buy a computer with Linux preinstalled and with support. Then, of there's a problem, you can support and get it sorted.
The problem with this is that set of laptops is so small and restrictive. It's mostly just Clevo rebadges which feel kinda cheap and have design choices that are becoming outdated like 16:9 screens and a couple of models from Dell and HP.
My general rules of thumb for selecting laptops for linux:
- Avoid Realtek wherever possible, usually in favor of Intel. Even though Realtek hardware usually technically works on Linux, it's often in a reduced or buggy capacity.
- Avoid Nvidia. This might change soon now that Nvidia is finally being a bit more open with driver development, but for now Nvidia cards are still likely cause of unnecessary pain.
- If possible, avoid discrete GPUs. AMD cards are more likely to be well-behaved than Nvidia cards but often the most trouble-free experience is with nothing but an iGPU. This is really only practical for users who use laptops for their portability and have a desktop for where raw power is necessary.
> The problem with this is that set of laptops is so small and restrictive.
I disagree on this and the supposed Clevo point. Got a source for "just a Clevo" rebadge?
Also, support and firmware.
Many of the names that come to mind when mentioning Linux-native laptops like system76 and Tuxedo Computers use Clevo as their ODM. They make some tweaks to the hardware and might change the firmware, but at the end of the day, they're still Clevo complete with aforementioned warts (like 16:9 screens and questionable build quality). There are exceptions like Starlabs Systems and Purism, but they're the exception and not the norm.
All vendors use an ODM. That doesn't mean that buying from the ODM directly will get you the same experience as buying from them. The vendor cam work with the ODM to customize hardware and firmware, so "rebadge" is a really poor way of describing it.
But yes, if you want a non-Clevo ODM there aren't as many options.
Note, though, that buying from Windows vendors will make the situation worse, not better.
> The vendor cam work with the ODM to customize hardware and firmware, so "rebadge" is a really poor way of describing it
It's the best way to describe it: they change maybe the wifi card, certainly the logo, tweak a few bios defaults, and for sure you a premium for that, but that's all they can do, and nothing you couldn't do yourself (except the logo, unless you like stickers lol)
> Note, though, that buying from Windows vendors will make the situation worse, not better.
In term of having more rebadging? Yes, there will be more parasites taking advantage of people who want to buy the right to have someone to blame for their laptop not working correctly on Linux.
But it terms on Linux support, it will not change anything: Lenovo still offers the best support, with other companies except Framework limited by their dependance on Clevo
It might even make things worse, by leading those who've been taken advantage of by unscrupulous companies that Linux just doesn't work well on laptops.
More important, for those wanting the best results, it will be counter productive: they will certainly have someone to blame (they paid for that "right" after all) but they could have instead taken the problem in their own hands and made their hardware work, with the help of resources like archwiki.
It's not the ideal solution, but I think Framework will need another 5 to 10 years to be really competitive to Lenovo. In the meantime, I would be happy to support them or help them, but now that I've decided 2023 is my year of Linux on the desktop, it'll have to be on a Lenovo.
> It's the best way to describe it: they change maybe the wifi card, certainly the logo, tweak a few bios defaults, and for sure you a premium for that, but that's all they can do
Nope. That's 100% false.
https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1322954630448427011
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414
I don't get why Lenovos are supposedly so great. The one I had at work was _terrible_, hands down the worst Linux experience I've ever had. And I put Linux on a bunch of Windows boxen back when we had no choices in the matter.
> I don't get why Lenovos are supposedly so great. The one I had at work was _terrible_, hands down the worst Linux experience I've ever had.
You only had one? How can you pretend to know a brand with 1 model?
FYI, of the modern thinkpads, only those from the X1 series are good.
On the others series, too many corners have been cut. At work, you're unlikely to have gotten a X1, so I'm not surprised about your experience.
If you are curious and want to try, get a X1, even an old one from ebay. It can be great after some minor configuration, and I'd be happy to help: my 2 lenovos (a hold on windows and linux, a nano just on linux) are both perfectly stable, consume less than 5% of battery per 10h of sleep, and resumes perfectly. I don't know any better computer to run Linux, or I would have gotten it already.
TBH the nano is so great that I've moved from Windows to Linux on the desk(lap)top in 2023 :)
> That's 100% false.
Look at the comments from your own link, from actual users of Clevos who are trying to politely say it's not as good as claimed. There's a lot of astroturfing from linux related brands on sites like HN.
And FYI a tweaked fan curve is nothing to brag about, when they have components not even working like the fingerprint reader.
Now if you are curious, invest a few hunders in a used thinkpad and see for yourself.
> You only had one? How can you pretend to know a brand with 1 model?
Because it is also a common sentiment I've heard from others, on X1s. But also because it was my experience
> FYI, of the modern thinkpads, only those from the X1 series are good.
I'm sure if you research thoroughly and are lucky it xan work. I'd rather pay fir a company that fully backs Linux on the hardware.
> TBH the nano is so great that I've moved from Windows to Linux on the desk(lap)top in 2023 :)
I'm glad you did, welcome! (I've been running Linux since the 90s. :) I'm glad it's working for you, but I'd suggest it's a poor strategy even if it's perhaps an acceptable tactic.
> Look at the comments from your own link, from actual users of Clevos who are trying to politely say it's not as good as claimed.
Yes, because Clevos are not System76? That's rather my point. They're the people who bought Clevos and discovered the hard way that they're different in very salient ways.
> There's a lot of astroturfing from linux related brands on sites like HN.
Astroturfing? I've talked woth these folks and have used their hardware since the late to mid-aughts. Saying they're contradicting their claims, and they're saying up front they work for System76.
It's like claiming a RedHat dev is astroturfing when they say how the internals of the distro work. (And I'm highly sceptical of them having the disposable cash to splash out to hire astroturfers!)
> tweaked fan curve is nothing to brag about, when they have components not even working like the fingerprint reader.
It's not just a tweaked fan curve. The firmwares are entirely different.
The reply about the fingerprint reader sounds reasonable. They don't have nearly the leverage of Dell, Lenovo, or Apple to get the ODM to do what they want. This sounds reasonable (and not my own experience.) They're a small shop, in no small part because people keep showing Linux on Windows computers.
> Now if you are curious, invest a few hunders in a used thinkpad and see for yourself.
I could, or I could keep buying hardware that is for Linux, with support. I think my time is worth it.
> It's not just a tweaked fan curve. The firmwares are entirely different.
Unless they are featuring coreboot, they just tweaked options in say the Insyde bios, so no, not entirely different.
> I could, or I could keep buying hardware that is for Linux, with support. I think my time is worth it.
Personally, I prefer quality.
Should you ever change your mind, get in touch, I'm preparing a sick arch image with absolutely perfect hardware support on wayland!
What about a fully Free CoreBoot firmware and EC?
https://github.com/system76/firmware-open https://github.com/system76/ec
> Personally, I prefer quality.
Me too! It's why I don't waste time with hostile hardware.
I'm also glad I can rely on the original, preinstalled Pop! or Ubuntu distro instead of having to trust some stranger's spin of Arch to get full hardware support, or do it all myself.